Tom Green, Woody Paige, and Ron Zappolo open with Denver’s upcoming rematch against the Chiefs and the mounting concern over Bo Nix’s shaky confidence under Sean Payton’s play-calling. They break down why the Broncos’ offense looks lost, how Payton’s “all plays are good if they work” defense rings hollow, and whether Denver can keep up with Patrick Mahomes after back-to-back 10-point outputs. The guys then pivot to the Rockies’ stunning hire of Paul DePodesta as president of baseball operations—questioning whether the Moneyball mastermind can modernize a 100-loss franchise that’s lost touch with its fan base. The episode closes with Around the Horn alum Sarah Spain, who joins to discuss her new book Runs in the Family, the rise of women’s sports, and life after ESPN.
This week’s After the Horn dives deep into Denver’s football and baseball storylines. Bo Nix looks rattled and indecisive, while Sean Payton’s creative play-calling has backfired—prompting the crew to wonder whether the Broncos’ head coach is holding his rookie QB back. Then, the focus shifts to the Rockies’ surprise move hiring analytics veteran Paul DePodesta from the Browns, sparking debate over whether “Moneyball 2.0” can work at Coors Field. Finally, Sarah Spain joins Woody Page & company to talk about her Peabody-winning journalism, her new book Runs in the Family, and the booming growth of women’s sports, from Caitlin Clark’s impact to Denver’s new NWSL club.
00;00;00;10 - 00;00;36;19
Tom Green
The Chiefs come to Denver this week for a big one. Of course, the last time they came here, the Broncos beat them 38. Nothing. That could happen again. If Carson Wentz starts for Kansas City. This week also marked the 50th anniversary of the Edmund Fitzgerald sinking. You know that. That means we'll talk about the Rockies.
00;00;36;21 - 00;00;52;29
Ron Zappolo
Little known fact among us. As long as the we made a pact that as long as the Broncos continue to score less than 20 points a game, we'll continue to do this show. So we're going to be on for a while. Hi, everybody at Tron's Apollo, Tom green, Woody Page. Should we start with what we saw?
00;00;53;00 - 00;01;03;01
Woody Paige
No, I want to start with the Edmund Fitzgerald because I looked I looked it up because I wanted to know who Edmund Fitzgerald was. There was no Edmund Fitzgerald.
00;01;03;01 - 00;01;04;05
Tom Green
He's a fictional character.
00;01;04;06 - 00;01;05;12
Woody Paige
Yeah, well, he's from this.
00;01;05;12 - 00;01;07;28
Tom Green
All okay? Yeah, but the ship was.
00;01;07;29 - 00;01;08;24
Ron Zappolo
Lightfoot made him.
00;01;08;24 - 00;01;13;05
Tom Green
Famous. The ship was named after someone who didn't exist. Unbelievable.
00;01;13;07 - 00;01;25;02
Woody Paige
That that's that's more. I mean, two things going on. Edmund Fitzgerald, 50th anniversary and the good ship lady that produces the show. And her father's birthday is tomorrow.
00;01;25;06 - 00;01;28;20
Tom Green
Oh my goodness. So the two big things for this week.
00;01;28;22 - 00;01;30;04
Ron Zappolo
Now on to the Broncos.
00;01;30;07 - 00;01;48;19
Tom Green
They have their, a little extra time and, the offense should spend it, taking a look at how to be better because that that was hard to watch. And we've seen some other game since. The Monday night game also was a struggle. The see teams in the National Football League really having a hard time trying to score points, trying to look efficient, trying to look like you're trying to score points.
00;01;48;21 - 00;02;15;29
Ron Zappolo
Well, as we said on the betting show last week, I hope you took the Broncos and took them on the money line, because if you lead the points, you're upset. Again, this is two weeks in a row now where the Broncos, offensively this is not sustainable. And it looked to me watching the game and then listening to him after the game that Bo Nix has lost his confidence.
00;02;16;01 - 00;02;38;11
Woody Paige
I don't think that's true. I think he's lost his way. Well I am different. When I went to different, I believe that he's so wound up by the fact that your running plays where you throw two passes that both end up losing yardage in the same play. Worst worst trick play I've seen since the Colts did their.
00;02;38;13 - 00;02;43;23
Ron Zappolo
Worst timing for a trick play that I've seen in years. Third and one third and one team averaging.
00;02;43;23 - 00;02;44;24
Tom Green
What was it? Six. You remember the.
00;02;44;24 - 00;02;48;15
Woody Paige
Colts on fourth down and they had the 42.
00;02;48;15 - 00;02;48;27
Tom Green
Guys.
00;02;49;00 - 00;03;10;01
Ron Zappolo
But here's why I think he's lost his confidence because I thought last year the one thing I really liked about him was he was quick decisions and had confidence, knew where to put the ball. Didn't look. He looks to me now on every throw like he's unsure of where it should go. And that to me is I think it's a confidence thing.
00;03;10;01 - 00;03;35;16
Tom Green
Well, he's moving to places where everything has changed because he does escape the pocket quickly. We've seen that. That's usually a recipe for disaster for quarterbacks. He's leaving the pocket quickly. And then it's not a scramble, a quarterback scramble. It's just things get scrambled and he turns into a guy who goes too fast. Just seems that they can't define what he wants to do and do it.
00;03;35;18 - 00;04;05;08
Woody Paige
Odd that in training camp during the offseason that both he and Peyton said that he didn't have to diagnose the play before he did it, that it was had come naturally to him, and it looks like it's not coming naturally to him because I think that Peyton is giving him two options, which is what coaches do, and he's still thinking about which option.
00;04;05;14 - 00;04;33;27
Woody Paige
But I also would like to see him. Don't want to make comparisons. He's not John Elway. He never will be. But John in the early years would immediately go to the run if the pass wasn't there. And we saw that out of Bo Nix last year. He's not doing it unless he's just pressed into it. And that's a major part, I think, of his game, their offense, because they don't have a running game.
00;04;33;27 - 00;04;48;02
Woody Paige
Still, they're not they're not utilizing that as they should. But I watched the game last night. It's 10 to 7 and you go, what is going on when in the NFL about 44 to 20 for the Broncos?
00;04;48;09 - 00;05;07;01
Tom Green
I think quarterbacks in general are playing. There are two things that are really bad that can happen to quarterback sacks and turnovers. And I think you have quarterbacks now playing with a certain amount of fear. Things are not going to get easier for Bo Nix with Steve Spagnuolo and and what he will probably have drawn up this Sunday when the Chiefs come to town.
00;05;07;01 - 00;05;16;23
Ron Zappolo
Well, I think he's right about one thing. It is a bad look for the NFL when on these national TV games like Thursday night and last night, it's 10 to 7.
00;05;16;24 - 00;05;18;13
Tom Green
They've done all they could. They make the rules for.
00;05;18;13 - 00;05;44;11
Ron Zappolo
They've done everything to make it better and they still can't score. Just one more thing. Bo Nix, I think it makes it worse when Caleb Williams and especially Drake Maye are ascending the way they are and they are carrying their teams, especially Drake Maye and Bo Nix, who got deservedly so a lot of credit last year for being a rookie and leading this team to the playoffs.
00;05;44;18 - 00;05;50;13
Ron Zappolo
He's obviously regressed, while the rest of these guys in this class have seemingly gotten better. How much?
00;05;50;15 - 00;05;57;16
Tom Green
How much? That's the player, the quarterback. And how much is the coach? You know, you have Ben Johnson and Mike Vrabel coaching those other two guys.
00;05;57;18 - 00;05;58;04
Ron Zappolo
But but is.
00;05;58;04 - 00;06;01;11
Tom Green
Sean Payton well in the way of his development of.
00;06;01;14 - 00;06;08;27
Ron Zappolo
Able coaches the Patriots. But Josh McDaniels yeah. Who is the best coordinator in the NFL is coaching the quarterback.
00;06;08;28 - 00;06;09;27
Tom Green
He used to coach here remember.
00;06;09;28 - 00;06;32;13
Ron Zappolo
Yeah I do remember that Sean Payton is the Svengali here. He has complete control over everything. And by the way when the press asks Sean Payton about the third and one call where you pitch it out to Courtland Sutton and try to have him throw, and he says, well, all plays are good if they work. Yeah, I don't need that as an answer.
00;06;32;15 - 00;06;46;02
Ron Zappolo
The answer is you know, we all got to be better. Starts with me. We scored ten points. That wasn't my best call. But the bigger picture is how do you how do you feel confident now about the Broncos going forward?
00;06;46;04 - 00;06;49;28
Woody Paige
I don't feel comfortable neither confident about the Chiefs.
00;06;49;28 - 00;06;50;16
Ron Zappolo
I don't either.
00;06;50;20 - 00;07;21;00
Woody Paige
Playing the Chiefs and we know what Mahomes is going to bring to the game in terms of he's not going to be under pressure or under stress, I should say under stress. He's under pressure a lot. But notice how he handles it well. He doesn't handle it as stress that he can go to the line when other teams and it was mentioned last night, they'll come up is fourth and one, and all the good to do is try and take, take the other team into a, you know, an offsides play.
00;07;21;02 - 00;07;52;18
Woody Paige
But Mahomes will do 25 seconds and then run the play. Yeah. Why don't you do more of that? If you're going to do something that's kind of tricky. I think that the worst thing that ever happened in Sean Payton's career was that onside kick working against the Colts and Peyton Manning, because he thinks he can come up with plays that nobody else can figure out because either surprise like you did with the certain play, which was a just total cluster.
00;07;52;21 - 00;07;52;28
Woody Paige
Yeah.
00;07;52;28 - 00;07;55;07
Ron Zappolo
But yeah. So you can say it, I guess.
00;07;55;07 - 00;07;56;11
Woody Paige
I, you know.
00;07;56;13 - 00;07;59;26
Tom Green
But that's so this is the ultimate coaching match up for Sean Payton.
00;07;59;26 - 00;08;04;06
Woody Paige
There was a clusterfuck there. You know it was I don't.
00;08;04;06 - 00;08;05;29
Tom Green
Extract that out of you there.
00;08;06;01 - 00;08;25;28
Ron Zappolo
No you know what. The Chiefs are going to come in way more desperate than the Broncos. They're five and four. They absolutely have to win for they have a chance of not making the playoffs. And on top of that I look at the Vegas line in this game. The Broncos have tied for the best record in the NFL.
00;08;26;01 - 00;08;40;03
Ron Zappolo
There are three and a half point underdog at home. So the wise guys who know are telling you who the better team is. And on top of that, Andy Reid in his career offer by 21. And for.
00;08;40;05 - 00;08;41;00
Tom Green
Pretty good.
00;08;41;02 - 00;08;42;23
Ron Zappolo
That's a big enough pretty good size.
00;08;42;25 - 00;08;55;21
Tom Green
So what do you think though? Like Kansas City even against the Denver defense that continues to shine, Kansas City is going to score in the mid 20s if not up to 30. And the Broncos offense is either going to have to keep pace or come up with an 11.
00;08;55;23 - 00;08;59;14
Ron Zappolo
Unlike, Davis Mills or Geno Smith.
00;08;59;17 - 00;09;00;20
Woody Paige
It's going to be different.
00;09;00;20 - 00;09;26;26
Ron Zappolo
Patrick Mahomes will figure out right away hey that number two, that certain guy he's not playing in Mahomes is like Brady his favorite receiver will be the guy that's running open with the guy that is replacing Patrick. Certain they're not going to hold him to five field goals. You're right. They're going to score maybe 2730 points. And I don't think the Bronco offense is capable of keeping up.
00;09;26;29 - 00;09;58;21
Woody Paige
Oh but don't you think saying this sarcastically that if Sean Payton keeps bringing in old tight ends, that he can find one that can compete? He got against the guy that's going to be on the other side for the Chiefs, that is still playing to maybe not the greatest, still putting his career, but he's he knows they he and Mahomes know exactly what each other doing.
00;09;58;24 - 00;10;21;07
Woody Paige
And on the Broncos side at tight end nobody knows what any of them are doing because again we had the quote Joker, which I hated from the beginning because we got already got in Denver a joker, a joker, he hasn't been a joker. He hasn't been a deuce. He has a bit of tray, he has anything. And they bring in a guy.
00;10;21;07 - 00;10;24;12
Woody Paige
It's 4210 and played in, you know, two years.
00;10;24;12 - 00;10;43;13
Tom Green
So if Sean Payton were to call his mentor, Bill Parcells, Bill Parcells would tell him, this game needs to be short. You need to run the football. Think you rely on your defense and you need well, I don't know if he always talks about running the football. They do seem to be successful at running the football. They don't seem to stick to running the football.
00;10;43;13 - 00;10;50;17
Tom Green
And it'll be interesting because then it also becomes a matter of another glaring weakness for the Broncos, their special teams. They're going to have to.
00;10;50;23 - 00;11;12;22
Ron Zappolo
Win the field. They don't run the ball near enough and you're you're spot on if you're going to play the Chiefs, what do you do? You shrink the game. You give the Chiefs less offensive possessions. I'm not a brilliant guy, but I know the way to do that is to run the football and Sean Payton, for whatever reason, talks to talk about running the football, but he never does it.
00;11;12;22 - 00;11;13;06
Tom Green
It's tough.
00;11;13;06 - 00;11;36;28
Woody Paige
On Sunday, Mike Shanahan and Dan Reeves are up for the Hall of Fame again this year, and I think one of them will get it. And I think it'll be Shanahan. What is the difference between Mike Shanahan, Dan Reeves and Sean Payton? Dan Reeves love to run football. Yes, he would run the hell out of the football. Mike Shanahan is known as a great passing guru, right?
00;11;36;28 - 00;12;05;17
Woody Paige
Like Payton supposedly is. And he ran the football. But everybody that played for the Broncos, even if they were tight end or an offensive tackle, got a thousand yards rushing every year. It didn't. You'd say, really, this guy got a thousand yards rushing. I mean, not not only was it Terrelle Davis, but he ran the ball effectively with that brush back with a zone block.
00;12;05;20 - 00;12;22;24
Woody Paige
Yeah. The zone blocking without and freezing the outside. He was doing that. They're not getting to the outside with this team. They're not doing it there. There's there seems to be no I hate this term rhyme or reason for exactly what he's doing with the running.
00;12;22;24 - 00;12;45;02
Ron Zappolo
Game there, isn't it? There isn't. And it's another difference. Woody. Mike Shanahan, even though he was the quote mastermind, he didn't mind at all running the ball 3035 times a game didn't bother him. I don't think he felt like his ego needed to be, massaged by throwing it a ton. I don't get that same feeling from Sean Payton.
00;12;45;04 - 00;12;58;18
Tom Green
Well, he also, Mike Shanahan, when he was running the ball, also had better quarterback play than what? Oh, Nix is right now. Bo Nix is a young player still developing and is still yet to touch the levels that the quarterbacks to play.
00;12;58;21 - 00;13;07;21
Ron Zappolo
The question now maybe becomes so I heard somebody asked me that this week is Bo Nix the guy going forward.
00;13;07;23 - 00;13;35;01
Woody Paige
This for our friend who's a columnist. In this town for a long time, suggests that they get Bo Nix out of the lineup and put him out there. And if you go back to it was preseason. He played extremely, extremely well. And he seemed to know the offense better. It seemed to be more comfortable. Do you? Actually, I'm asking you, the two of you, do you even consider putting.
00;13;35;01 - 00;13;42;16
Tom Green
Him in reality of that though? The reality that also gets back to something you alluded to and that that would include the head coach saying he was wrong and.
00;13;42;17 - 00;13;48;26
Ron Zappolo
That's not going to happen. That's why I say, you know, Sean Payton and Bo Nix are tied together.
00;13;48;26 - 00;13;53;06
Tom Green
Huge, huge game on Sunday. Hey, the Rockies made a move.
00;13;53;06 - 00;13;54;11
Woody Paige
But you're wrong.
00;13;54;14 - 00;13;55;15
Tom Green
Oh,
00;13;55;17 - 00;13;57;25
Woody Paige
Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin did break up.
00;13;57;25 - 00;13;58;15
Ron Zappolo
They did break.
00;13;58;15 - 00;14;01;04
Woody Paige
Up. They were the same as Bo Nix and Sean Payton.
00;14;01;04 - 00;14;10;14
Ron Zappolo
Lennon-McCartney went their separate ways. It does happen, but it takes time. They didn't. Martin and Lewis didn't break up in the second year of their partnership.
00;14;10;17 - 00;14;31;24
Tom Green
No. They had to get to the top. Yeah. Let's go to the Rockies in the hiring of Paul Depodesta. Obviously everything that we do gets examined through a different lens because of the way this team as manage things over the last few years. And so they they went looking a global search, and they found the man who made the Cleveland Browns what they are today.
00;14;31;26 - 00;14;35;07
Tom Green
And they were able to secure him. And his escape from Cleveland.
00;14;35;07 - 00;14;36;01
Ron Zappolo
Have been tough.
00;14;36;01 - 00;15;03;14
Woody Paige
54, 99 and one with Podesta. I've talked to people in Cleveland. They're friends of mine. Columnist. That doesn't make them right, because I'm not. But they said we could never figure out what his role was because, first of all, he never moved to Cleveland. He's in La Hoya. Yeah. Where the Chargers changed train. Right there by the golf course that used to be the Andy Williams Open.
00;15;03;15 - 00;15;04;27
Woody Paige
You know, Torrey Pines. That's where he.
00;15;04;27 - 00;15;12;15
Tom Green
Lives. But that's his best decision that he made with the Browns was to not live in Cleveland and to stay in La Hoya. That's a good decision.
00;15;12;17 - 00;15;34;25
Woody Paige
But there was a song when I was in college, and this has no reference really to Fitz. But when they announced him, I said, you got the right string, baby, but the all yo yo, that was a song in the 60s, you know. Remember that? Yes, you got the right guy, but you got him 20 years after. You should have gotten him that when he was doing Moneyball.
00;15;35;00 - 00;15;56;19
Woody Paige
Now he's not doing any kind of ball. And you and I kind of talked we did before forehand that he probably was the only person that interviewed that let the owner of the team sit in the room and say whatever he wanted to, and he didn't touch the thing about.
00;15;56;22 - 00;16;21;14
Ron Zappolo
But but Paul Depodesta, he's had a interesting career. You can't convince me that in a decade away from baseball that he's followed the game closely enough to be up to speed this week at the general managers meetings, there's no way that's an impossibility.
00;16;21;16 - 00;16;40;07
Tom Green
I, I well, it's no hard to to forecast what he's going to do, how fast he's going to go because he hopefully he came to the Rockies when they approached him or he approached them and he had people in his pocket say, I need this GM, I need this scout, I need this guy here because I do like his his title.
00;16;40;07 - 00;16;45;10
Tom Green
He's the president of baseball operations, and I've seen the acronym pro bono. So he.
00;16;45;12 - 00;16;45;28
Woody Paige
But he.
00;16;46;01 - 00;16;51;03
Ron Zappolo
He's in a sport and he knows this. He has to move fast. It goes fast.
00;16;51;04 - 00;16;52;01
Tom Green
It's already gone.
00;16;52;01 - 00;16;55;04
Ron Zappolo
It's going. Yeah. I mean, you you don't have time to catch up.
00;16;55;07 - 00;17;19;14
Woody Paige
Here's the situation that would make it comfortable for the general managers meeting and the owners meetings that are coming up is that if you get that lobbying, who has been up till now, he was fired by the, he left the twins, after the 24 season and but he's had a podcast about baseball and and.
00;17;19;14 - 00;17;19;22
Ron Zappolo
He's.
00;17;19;22 - 00;17;45;27
Woody Paige
Current. They I don't know whether this makes any sense that he and pedestrian are from Alexandria, Virginia, and they played soccer as kids. They've never been on the same baseball team or, you know, really worked together before. But do you go get a guy that has been a part of I think you if it's not Levine, that you get somebody that's coming straight from another baseball role.
00;17;45;29 - 00;18;05;09
Tom Green
If Depodesta does everything right, hires a GM, decides on a manager, or the GM decides on a manager, they make some roster moves the ceiling for immediate impact on the Rockies. They still are going to lose 100. Yes. I mean, I don't know where you can suddenly find those other 20. Well, what.
00;18;05;09 - 00;18;28;22
Woody Paige
About a couple of guys? Let me mention a couple of guys and I and I put this, I think, in my column, Bochy, Bruce Bode, one who won a World Series recently, and Bob Melvin, who was considered one of the great managers of the last 25 years or something. Can they do enough to make a difference, even though this team is bad?
00;18;28;22 - 00;18;30;14
Ron Zappolo
Yes. They wouldn't make a difference.
00;18;30;16 - 00;18;50;17
Tom Green
The only one on one proven manager has come here. I mean, Bud Black had managed quite a bit, but one proven winner manager came here and it was Jim Leland and he stayed for about an hour, you know, so I mean, like if you're really good at this, do you want this job that's, that's that's what I think is hard, especially if you're I don't know, Bob Melvin Bruce spoke to you, okay.
00;18;50;20 - 00;18;52;28
Tom Green
You're taking on a four year project.
00;18;52;29 - 00;19;03;23
Ron Zappolo
Bruce Bochy is 70 years old. Yeah. This is not the kind of situation he would want to come into. I don't know, Melbourne's a little younger. Maybe that's different, but you'd have to get somebody.
00;19;03;23 - 00;19;06;20
Woody Paige
You know, you're in your 70s, you came into this situation.
00;19;06;20 - 00;19;08;20
Ron Zappolo
I did this could be I can walk could.
00;19;08;20 - 00;19;10;05
Woody Paige
Be a four year or four.
00;19;10;07 - 00;19;11;07
Ron Zappolo
Out of my deal.
00;19;11;07 - 00;19;13;01
Woody Paige
Here.
00;19;13;03 - 00;19;29;04
Tom Green
Hey. So so the Rockies, we expect to continue to struggle. I think they'll be a very I thought this year was a very interesting story to watch them, you know, pursue a record for most losses. But because it's hard it's hard to do. It's hard to be that bad. You know how many teams have lost 104 years in a row?
00;19;29;04 - 00;19;36;11
Tom Green
I mean, it's like the senators and the Mets of the 60s. It's really hard to do. And they're on that path. And I think they've.
00;19;36;11 - 00;19;40;22
Woody Paige
Taken the loss 500 games in the last five years. Right. And their film base.
00;19;40;22 - 00;19;43;20
Tom Green
Continues to turn out like Washington. The senators had to move.
00;19;43;21 - 00;19;49;11
Ron Zappolo
Do you really. Because there do you really think that the Rockies have a fan base?
00;19;49;13 - 00;19;49;29
Tom Green
Yeah.
00;19;50;06 - 00;19;52;08
Ron Zappolo
What describe the fan base to me.
00;19;52;10 - 00;19;57;17
Tom Green
Well, they remind me of, you know, the people love the stadium.
00;19;57;19 - 00;20;00;22
Ron Zappolo
Well, now you're getting into it. Yeah. They like going to the ball.
00;20;00;23 - 00;20;01;29
Tom Green
They turn out. Yeah.
00;20;01;29 - 00;20;22;18
Ron Zappolo
They don't have a fan base. They like they don't have a fan base. They listen. They have no they have no ratings on television. If you go to Coors Field, it's predominantly people rooting for the Dodgers or the Cubs or. Yeah, whoever's coming in. And on top of that, the I would be willing to and I can't prove this.
00;20;22;20 - 00;20;43;14
Ron Zappolo
You could take a survey any night at Coors Field. And the overwhelming majority of people there couldn't name you three Colorado Rockies. They're just there for a night in LoDo, a couple of drinks. It's fun. You get to see Shohei Ohtani. They're not. The Rockies have killed. And I know it's.
00;20;43;14 - 00;20;46;06
Tom Green
Fun, but that's the plan is to is to read.
00;20;46;08 - 00;20;52;23
Ron Zappolo
I just don't think you snap your fingers. No. And you get it right back I just don't maybe you I don't see a.
00;20;52;23 - 00;21;22;04
Woody Paige
Guy wrote me and he said, why don't people stop going to the games? And that'll make them say Sunday. The we've heard it 500,000 times. And I said to him, rockets fans have stopped going. Going to the game. Yeah. If you want to make the Dick Monfort sell the team, you have to go to the people who are fans of other teams.
00;21;22;11 - 00;21;24;16
Woody Paige
They're the ones who are keeping or.
00;21;24;16 - 00;21;31;28
Ron Zappolo
Or the the fans in the Braska and Utah. And sure, the come for the weekend and.
00;21;31;28 - 00;21;49;18
Woody Paige
Guess what they're doing? It's the same thing that my family would do when when I was a kid, go to school, go to the circus once a year. We take the train to Saint Louis to see the Cardinals once a year. That was that was our team, my teammates. Same deals team. So that's what they're doing in Nebraska.
00;21;49;18 - 00;21;58;29
Woody Paige
That's what they're doing in Utah. That's what they're doing in New Mexico that they're fans of the Albuquerque Isotopes. And they go, well, let's go up and see Major League.
00;21;59;03 - 00;21;59;19
Ron Zappolo
Yeah.
00;21;59;22 - 00;22;28;12
Woody Paige
So it's it's an unusual situation where you can say Rockies fans should stop booing. They have stopped going. They're not watching it on TV. They are not going and sitting in their seats. Because the only reason why you look on a Thursday when it's getaway day and you see that there's maybe a thousand people in the stands, but they're saying there's 16,000 because I have proof, because I'll tell you how the proof happens.
00;22;28;18 - 00;22;34;03
Woody Paige
They have to give the actual attendance to the city treasurer.
00;22;34;03 - 00;22;34;22
Tom Green
Right.
00;22;34;25 - 00;22;40;22
Woody Paige
So I have people in the city office and they say, man, the numbers they give are just totally.
00;22;40;25 - 00;22;42;00
Tom Green
Carl sheer era. Yeah.
00;22;42;03 - 00;22;43;21
Ron Zappolo
The old Carl. Sure. True.
00;22;43;24 - 00;23;06;15
Tom Green
Yeah. So if you go, let's say a mile or two down the road, you're going to see, Ball Arena and Empower Field. And this year, those three teams who inhabit those buildings are killing it. And so while the Rockies, that's part of their perspective is the nuggets. The avalanche are starting off in a serious mood as far as trying to stock another.
00;23;06;15 - 00;23;07;17
Ron Zappolo
Championship, the best.
00;23;07;17 - 00;23;12;24
Tom Green
Record in the league, because they're eight and two. It's pretty, you know, for all the Rockies talk it's a pretty good time here in Colorado.
00;23;12;24 - 00;23;20;26
Ron Zappolo
Yeah of course it is. I think it is. I mean we got one out of the four is lagging. But the other three have championship but.
00;23;20;29 - 00;23;23;06
Tom Green
Five losses between the three franchises.
00;23;23;06 - 00;23;50;20
Woody Paige
At this point I'd like to just insert this before going to more important items. Really the that I know I'm an idiot, but not only have a month for destroyed baseball in Denver, they destroyed it in Colorado Springs. They destroyed in Grand Junction. They put a team, a Triple-A team. They took over the mentorship, if you will, of the Colorado White Sox.
00;23;50;23 - 00;23;51;22
Woody Paige
Sky sports.
00;23;51;25 - 00;23;52;29
Tom Green
Yeah.
00;23;53;02 - 00;24;05;13
Woody Paige
Then they sold it. He went out of business. They bought the Grand Junction Rockies. It's gone out of business. They have personally ruined baseball and it's history. And you're laughing at me.
00;24;05;13 - 00;24;08;19
Ron Zappolo
But no, I'm not. I'm just there on a tour of just.
00;24;08;25 - 00;24;10;11
Tom Green
On a rampage.
00;24;10;13 - 00;24;39;29
Woody Paige
And that one that, So just started right up near Carlisle, Fort Collins. Windsor. Yeah. They had a minor independent team. That's not a business. There is no baseball in Colorado. And for whatever it's worth, it did have a proud history of teams in, in, in in Colorado Springs and Pueblo. Yeah. And Grand Junction. They had the the the guy that was the manager over there.
00;24;39;29 - 00;24;43;06
Woody Paige
The coach that actually built that stadium.
00;24;43;09 - 00;24;43;24
Tom Green
Zero.
00;24;43;27 - 00;24;48;12
Woody Paige
Yeah. Yeah. Sam. Yeah. And they've killed it throughout the state.
00;24;48;14 - 00;24;51;19
Ron Zappolo
They've killed they have killed baseball. They've killed the fan base.
00;24;51;25 - 00;24;53;13
Tom Green
You guys make it sound final.
00;24;53;15 - 00;25;20;06
Ron Zappolo
It's not final. Yeah, there's one way they can bring it back. If you want to go out and go get active and bring in players who are name players that people recognize the names and get excited by. You can get this thing going. But when people like us look at their 26 man roster and I'm guilty of this, most of them I don't know.
00;25;20;07 - 00;25;26;26
Ron Zappolo
You want to you want to get the fan base back. Go. Go get Boba. Shit. Go go sign people up.
00;25;26;29 - 00;25;42;19
Woody Paige
I'm going to give you a realistic possibility that if one of the three of us were picked tomorrow to be general manager by Paul, or, as I call him, when I rotate to, depot.
00;25;42;22 - 00;25;44;07
Ron Zappolo
Depot? Mr. Moneyball.
00;25;44;09 - 00;26;12;00
Woody Paige
Hey, welcome to your new home Depot. You know what the slogan is? I looked it up. Doers who get things done. Oh, I thought that should be that. That's good. His depots that should make him, use his slogan. There's a third baseman in Japan. Yes. That this year hits 65 home runs. He is coming to the United States to play in what you're talking about.
00;26;12;03 - 00;26;28;10
Woody Paige
Bobby said Toronto is not going to, What do you do? You get the latest version somewhat of Ohtani and you give the guy and I'm sorry, I can't say his name. It's third.
00;26;28;10 - 00;26;30;20
Ron Zappolo
Baseman. Yeah, I think it's Murakami.
00;26;30;20 - 00;26;34;07
Woody Paige
I think 65 home runs in Japan.
00;26;34;09 - 00;26;36;19
Ron Zappolo
Right? He strikes out a ton. But he would be.
00;26;36;22 - 00;26;42;26
Woody Paige
Yeah, he would. It translates to 50 something here I would think. Yeah. In Coors Field at altitude he going.
00;26;42;26 - 00;26;43;26
Ron Zappolo
To be fun.
00;26;43;28 - 00;26;52;02
Woody Paige
And you get him and you you don't have a winning team but you give up.
00;26;52;04 - 00;26;55;02
Tom Green
Something to see. Poto Bobo.
00;26;55;09 - 00;26;56;24
Ron Zappolo
But Woody the problem is.
00;26;56;24 - 00;26;58;09
Woody Paige
He says they need.
00;26;58;11 - 00;27;14;19
Ron Zappolo
They don't do that. They never do it. They since 2001, they have been actively against doing that. And the one time they dipped their toe into the water, they made the colossal mistake of doing it with Chris, Brian. And now they're told.
00;27;14;19 - 00;27;20;02
Woody Paige
That that's what they're supposed to do when it gets here. Where the GM is, is to turn that.
00;27;20;03 - 00;27;40;08
Ron Zappolo
Around and do the right. Read about Depodesta. Okay. And you believe his history. He's not going to do that. He's going to use. And this is why his hiring is so unusual. He is a analytics guru, right? So what he wants to do is find the Kevin Youkilis of the world.
00;27;40;08 - 00;27;41;05
Tom Green
Gary Hatteberg.
00;27;41;12 - 00;27;42;03
Ron Zappolo
Scott had.
00;27;42;03 - 00;27;42;22
Tom Green
Of got.
00;27;42;25 - 00;27;54;22
Ron Zappolo
People that well, we can go back to the movie, but it's loosely based. Yeah on him and he wants to find guys that are under the radar undervalued.
00;27;54;24 - 00;27;56;28
Tom Green
We already got those. We're not undervalued, but we've.
00;27;56;28 - 00;28;03;05
Ron Zappolo
Got it under the radar. Who is not going out and giving a Japanese slugger $60 million.
00;28;03;07 - 00;28;17;28
Woody Paige
You're looking at his past. We don't know what he is. 25 years later, people change. So to take two things rage. Two things that I respond to you. Number one, when he went to the Dodgers, they don't want somebody looking undercovers. No for for.
00;28;18;02 - 00;28;19;28
Ron Zappolo
Players. They want the big guns. Yes.
00;28;20;04 - 00;28;42;00
Woody Paige
Right. And so but he was still doing his Moneyball kind of thing with the Dodgers. How long did he last year a year and a half. He was 31 years old. And they got rid of him because yeah, he couldn't show that he could do fundamentally straight, smart baseball. But here's the other thing. He was up to his neck in the Watson thing with the Cleveland Browns.
00;28;42;03 - 00;28;56;16
Woody Paige
That deal. And they gave him full guaranteed contract, the highest in the history. And what he's been a complete waste of time. They're both the they both came in about well they didn't come at the same time.
00;28;56;16 - 00;28;58;13
Ron Zappolo
But
00;28;58;15 - 00;29;11;09
Woody Paige
You have a you've signed a guy in Denver that just did maybe had a lot of influence on the worst deal possibly in the history of NFL sports.
00;29;11;09 - 00;29;11;22
Ron Zappolo
It's up.
00;29;11;22 - 00;29;14;11
Woody Paige
There. You're only like three years away from that.
00;29;14;11 - 00;29;21;08
Tom Green
So as much as you want to give this Japanese third baseman all the money you can, does he even take a meeting with the Rockies? Probably not.
00;29;21;09 - 00;29;21;24
Ron Zappolo
No, no.
00;29;21;29 - 00;29;24;24
Tom Green
I mean, if the Dodgers in the Cubs, in the Red Sox and Mel's.
00;29;24;24 - 00;29;28;09
Ron Zappolo
Free agent will take a meeting with the Rockies, not a single.
00;29;28;09 - 00;29;28;23
Tom Green
What do you mean.
00;29;28;24 - 00;29;38;01
Ron Zappolo
Do you think Kyle Schwarber? I know all of them. Do you think that Kyle Tucker, Kyle Schwarber, Pete Alonso, who would all do what you're a professing?
00;29;38;06 - 00;29;39;10
Tom Green
It was 70 home runs.
00;29;39;10 - 00;29;44;13
Ron Zappolo
670 home runs. They would they don't want the Rockies money.
00;29;44;16 - 00;29;45;12
Tom Green
They can get it anywhere.
00;29;45;13 - 00;29;46;12
Ron Zappolo
They can get it anyway.
00;29;46;19 - 00;30;03;03
Woody Paige
People will tell you that they got Chris Pine. What what happened in that situation was because Chris Bryant was already, washed up with the Giants. They didn't want him back when they had a chance to do it. But the other thing is, he didn't want to come here, but nobody else wanted to pay him. Yeah. So he came here.
00;30;03;06 - 00;30;14;26
Woody Paige
And as he admitted later, I didn't look around and see how bad the organization was. And he didn't want to be here. Well, guess what? They shouldn't wanted him here because his career was was over.
00;30;14;28 - 00;30;20;10
Tom Green
But they were they did outbid themselves on that one. That was the power play because they were the only.
00;30;20;10 - 00;30;36;03
Ron Zappolo
But that's why they're not they just don't. If you look at their history over the last 25 years, once they signed Mike Hampton and Denny Nagel and those deals didn't work, they basically washed their hands of that never happened. For the most part. They have never gone back.
00;30;36;06 - 00;30;59;25
Woody Paige
You guys have done this. And I'm going to tell you the bidding against yourself. The Rockies did get Chris by, right? I'm doing charity event. And they said, would you. It's the I think the top silent auction item was, a trip to, Cabo or something and airfare. And they said, would you get it started even though you're the emcee and it's a tour.
00;30;59;28 - 00;31;25;29
Woody Paige
So I said $400 and the the, the auctioneer said, oh, what is, bid, $400? Oh. Over here, we got 506 hundred. 700, Woody, I go 800. Anyway. Make the story as short as possible, is it? I end up paying $4,000 for this silent auction item. You know, I'm outside getting my valet car at the hotel downtown afterward, and the auctioneer comes over.
00;31;25;29 - 00;31;48;18
Woody Paige
He said, man, you did a great job tonight. Your speech. And he said, boy, that $4,000. That was a great bid on the auction. Of course, you were bidding against yourself because there was nobody on the other side because. So every time people were laughing, be going, oh, $1,200, Woody, you go. And my old job was to try and get it up.
00;31;48;20 - 00;31;49;16
Woody Paige
Get it open. You did.
00;31;49;16 - 00;31;50;09
Tom Green
It because.
00;31;50;13 - 00;32;23;18
Woody Paige
There was nobody else bidding. Whenever I think about the Chris Bryant thing, I think about, yeah, the somebody kept coming in to Dick Margaret and saying, oh, the Yankees, what a party. Yeah, sure they do. $170 million. Well, it goes up 172 there they are. Here's the general managers meeting. They have just signed an renowned, renowned baseball analytical guy who was played by Jonah Hill.
00;32;23;18 - 00;32;26;17
Woody Paige
I know, wrote that, you know, maybe he should have gone after.
00;32;26;17 - 00;32;27;00
Ron Zappolo
Jonah.
00;32;27;00 - 00;32;55;16
Woody Paige
Hill. That would be a bigger name than Paul is right now. You got the owners. Majors are coming. You got an owner that only cares about there being a salary cap. And here we are. We've spent 12 minutes. It's not worth more than three minutes because, as you said, the Rockies fans have disappeared. They've gone. They don't want they don't even want to watch them on TV.
00;32;55;19 - 00;33;21;19
Woody Paige
The Rockies best. I thought the best thing they did, video wise, was that show that an old man came up with, like us a few years ago, where they had a 30 minute capsule of the game the day before, and I watched it. That's what I'd watch. I'd watch the next day and you'd have, you're you're you're Boyd Goodman talking like an extract.
00;33;21;22 - 00;33;28;15
Woody Paige
It's just like, well, it's two outs in the second. Okay. He struck up. Now it's through.
00;33;28;17 - 00;33;33;04
Ron Zappolo
Could you think of one good thing that they did this past season?
00;33;33;06 - 00;33;35;09
Tom Green
I mean, I'm sure I'm sure there are, but I. I'm sure.
00;33;35;09 - 00;33;36;15
Ron Zappolo
There are, but I, I.
00;33;36;16 - 00;33;37;19
Woody Paige
Hunter Goodwin.
00;33;37;27 - 00;33;40;09
Ron Zappolo
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You can pick out a certain player.
00;33;40;09 - 00;33;53;10
Tom Green
I have good news, though. Yeah. Pitchers and catchers report. But 95 days.
00;33;53;12 - 00;34;03;15
Tom Green
Welcome back to After the Horn. Of course, a product, following around the horn, which really made Woody Page famous. But, the premier player.
00;34;03;17 - 00;34;04;24
Woody Paige
In.
00;34;04;26 - 00;34;13;26
Tom Green
In Around the Horn history is kind enough to join us now. Serious game is taking time. Most of the people who work with Woody. Sara won't come on with us.
00;34;13;28 - 00;34;15;08
Speaker 4
Yeah, that checks out.
00;34;15;11 - 00;34;20;17
Tom Green
You are so gracious and kind to join us. Do you miss? Do you miss working with Woody?
00;34;20;20 - 00;34;34;02
Speaker 4
I do, you know what? He's a unique character, as I'm sure you've learned. If you haven't known it for for a long time. But I do have to say that I've told this story before. But when I first started on the show, was really nervous, having watched it for years and years before I was on it. And what do you sent me?
00;34;34;02 - 00;34;49;03
Speaker 4
The nicest email within the first week or two of me being on the show about how I seem to get the conceit, which was not just about showing off how much you knew, but taking jabs at each other and really having fun and playing up the part of it. Being a game show, a competition which comes very naturally to me.
00;34;49;03 - 00;34;58;00
Speaker 4
I'm problematically competitive, so I didn't have to really do that on purpose. But, it was nice to hear from the OG early on that I was, I was fitting in.
00;34;58;03 - 00;35;24;21
Woody Paige
Well, we should mention right away. And what is so totally impressive about Sarah, she's not only won an Emmy Award, which she certainly deserved, but she's won a Peabody Award. And I think in terms of Peabody Awards, that is so meaningful. Yeah. And yet she can be like down to earth and savage me and Joe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;35;24;22 - 00;35;34;26
Woody Paige
And she also won the that you mentioned in the same breath Peabody Award and best Halloween costume.
00;35;34;28 - 00;35;37;20
Speaker 4
She's up there. Notorious.
00;35;37;23 - 00;35;59;12
Woody Paige
So, I think, and, and, and I want to get this out immediately because it was so impressive to me spending, summer, I think it was in June that you're the book you coauthored. And I want to push everybody to to go out and get this. I don't really like sports books. I, really, even the ones I've read.
00;35;59;14 - 00;36;21;18
Woody Paige
But they're just so common. But this one not, it's called runs in the family, and you coauthored it. And, if you just take a moment to me, I don't. I hate the question. Would you talk about it? Yeah, that's a good question. To know what, what sort of after thoughts in regard to the reactions to the book runs in the family?
00;36;21;21 - 00;36;46;15
Speaker 4
Yeah. Thanks for the kind words. It's, it's wild writing a book and then just putting it out in the world. But the responses have been amazing. I would say, like, the publicity hasn't been as much as I'd hoped because it went so viral the first time when we did the story for ESPN, for E60, the feature story and the written, that I think some people knew the twist and the kind of meat of the story, but there's so much more in the book, so I really encourage people to read it.
00;36;46;17 - 00;37;14;05
Speaker 4
The long and short of it is Raiders running backs coach, Dillon McCullough. He's also coached at the Chiefs, Notre Dame, Indiana, USC, a bunch of other places. Adopted grew up in Youngstown after the steel mill collapse. Really tough childhood. Not a lot of money off and without electricity or heat or a phone. And his adoptive dad left when he was two, so sort of doubly rejected by father figures as being raised by a single mom who unfortunately, though, she's trying her best to raise him and his brother, struggles to make good choices and men.
00;37;14;05 - 00;37;35;27
Speaker 4
And so there's a lot of unsavory characters in the house. There's abuse, poverty, all these things. And he sort of finds football to take him out of there, starts getting recruited by a bunch of names y'all would know who were early on in their careers at the time. Bob Stoops and Jim Tressel and, and then Sherman Smith, who had been a Youngstown guy himself, had gone on to play in the NFL and was recruiting for Miami of Ohio.
00;37;35;29 - 00;37;56;26
Speaker 4
Brings him to Miami of Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, tries to go to the NFL, gets hurt, ends up in coaching and in his 40s after having four sons of his own. Really gets curious about his birth parents, goes on a journey, a search to find them, and unearths this incredible twist where, his father was in his life all along, and neither of them knew it.
00;37;56;28 - 00;38;16;09
Speaker 4
So you'll have to read the book to figure out who that is and what the twist is. And also, so much about nature versus nurture and what we learn from our DNA and what we learn from our experiences, how to end generational cycles of trauma. It's just a much meatier book than I think you might imagine from just the original story we told.
00;38;16;11 - 00;38;22;11
Woody Paige
Did you have a hangover? Well, it's a terrible way to start that out, but.
00;38;22;11 - 00;38;28;10
Speaker 4
Just not every day like you would do you. But sometimes.
00;38;28;13 - 00;38;48;12
Woody Paige
There are people in the other room that I know. The missus, you know. Yeah, yeah. This is a hang up. We're back east on the moon. You and I were doing, around the horn for years and years and years, and it's gone away. And I've talked to a number of people, and you kind of feel like a void in your life.
00;38;48;14 - 00;39;02;25
Woody Paige
But we've all move on, moved on to something else. And you're doing good game. But is there, I'm going to repeat myself. Is there a hangover from what you were doing for years and years?
00;39;02;28 - 00;39;32;00
Speaker 4
Yeah, it's just so different. And I think that's good. I think, frankly, if I was at ESPN doing all the jobs I was doing in and around the horn went away, it might hurt a little more than sort of having a completely different routine between the book and Good Game as they were speaking and the other work I'm doing, still with ESPN, doing, summits and events and stuff, I think it sometimes is easier to shake the whole thing up than just take away this thing that you love so much.
00;39;32;03 - 00;39;55;19
Speaker 4
And I mean, what are you were at it for way longer than I was, but that was my favorite job I've ever had. I just loved the people that we got to work with, and I loved the vibe of it, where it was about knowing your stuff and being able to talk about sometimes important issues that intersect with sports, but also just like, have fun and talk shit, which is like probably my best quality, and my best skill.
00;39;55;26 - 00;40;15;21
Speaker 4
So yeah, there, there was a bit of a hangover. Although I think you'll remember that in the lead up to the announcement that the show was going off the air, I was already not on it regularly anymore. Because of an exec who is no longer with ESPN who was secretly preventing me from being on the show, but not making that clear and wasting a lot of people's time and energy getting me back on.
00;40;15;21 - 00;40;35;15
Speaker 4
That didn't happen, but thankfully down the stretch, they were willing to have a ton of us back that hadn't been on and, it was great. I came on as Woody. Your accent is harder than I expected. After nailing Moira Rose and Gardner Minshew and Aaron Rodgers and Melania Trump, all these different characters, I sat down to do Woody and I, I it was it was tougher.
00;40;35;20 - 00;40;42;05
Speaker 4
It's like kind of southern, but not really. But that was my first appearance back in a while was as Woody Page.
00;40;42;07 - 00;41;01;00
Woody Paige
It's funny that Sarah brought up about an executive saying you're not going to be home for a while. I've known the executives at ESPN for a quarter of a century, and they would come up to me and they'd say, why don't you go on vacation this week?
00;41;01;03 - 00;41;17;06
Woody Paige
I don't know whether you ever got that one, but I would get that 1 or 2. I was down at Disneyland, Disney World doing a week with Around the Horn and Cold Pizza, and the executive producer called me and said, why don't you stay down here for a week? Right? That was always.
00;41;17;09 - 00;41;21;20
Speaker 4
Nice. That's a good problem to have somebody.
00;41;21;23 - 00;41;26;15
Woody Paige
Probably Leland, who you talked about who got really offended. But hey, said, right.
00;41;26;15 - 00;41;51;08
Ron Zappolo
This is Ron. I got a question for you. A lot of people get on television and they pull their punches. They want to keep their job. They play it close to the vest. When I watched you, I always had a lot of respect because you struck me as somebody and I don't know you, but as somebody who was not afraid to be outspoken, not afraid to take a stand, was that something you've always had, or did you push yourself to be that way?
00;41;51;11 - 00;42;08;24
Speaker 4
Yeah. You know, I mean, it's a probably a moronic choice, seeing as I no longer work full time at ESPN, but at the same time, yeah, it's pretty much always been in there. You know, I come from a family of lawyers. Both my parents and my sister went to law school, and we're not argumentative, but we're principled.
00;42;09;00 - 00;42;35;13
Speaker 4
And you know what I'll say about being a woman in a male dominated industry is that there's a lot of great people who are very supportive, but you go through a lot of terrible stuff and being relatively privileged as far as women go, being a white cis woman, you know, reasonably attractive. I because of the way I've been treated in this industry, I'm much more empathetic to the way marginalized folks across the world are treated in various situations.
00;42;35;13 - 00;42;53;05
Speaker 4
And it just felt like, why would I work so hard to find my place in this industry, get some agency, get a voice, and then not use it for more than just to make myself rich and famous. It just was never really a choice for me. I started out working in local radio in Chicago, and frankly, it wasn't always the best experience.
00;42;53;08 - 00;43;15;28
Speaker 4
And being the first woman on the air in 11 years, there being the only woman anywhere in the production side, I dealt with a lot of just the passive aggressive daily complaints about women or women are only good if they're hot or she's lost her fastball. Get her off to be like all that stuff over and over and when you internalize that all day, you start to believe it and or you start to take the crumbs and be grateful.
00;43;15;28 - 00;43;36;01
Speaker 4
And thankfully, I had other people, including my husband, that were like, hey, that's BS, and you're getting the short shrift, or you're not getting treated the way you should, or this is an environment that's really going to help you thrive and be the best you can be. And so as I did start to make my way up in the industry, I felt like it was just a responsibility to make sure that I spoke my mind about stuff to make the industry better for the people coming after me.
00;43;36;01 - 00;43;59;19
Speaker 4
And then also just on issues that matter. What's the point of being given a platform if you're going to couch your real feelings on things in order to protect your paycheck? In my opinion, I think that's just kind of bullshit. And, if you're not good at speaking on issues and if you're not eloquent when it comes to intersections of social issues and sport, then you know, by all means go talk box scores and who's the MVP seven months in advance.
00;43;59;19 - 00;44;08;01
Speaker 4
But for me, I think I would feel guilty making a bunch of money talking about sports, unless it felt like there was at least something more coming out of it.
00;44;08;03 - 00;44;26;01
Tom Green
I was going to ask you about because you were an athletic competitor. The growth of women's sports that you cover, the way you see them, and the Caitlin Clark effect, she's kind of the tip of the spear for many. But, here in Denver, the NWSL is going to have their new franchise, the Professional Women's Hockey League is going to visit here.
00;44;26;01 - 00;44;48;14
Tom Green
Again, we're seeing growth. And there was always that argument that nobody watches women's sports. And it seems like that's that is having a very difficult time right now because people are watching women's sports. And do you do you like the the look of the growth the WNBA is obviously going to a very difficult time now trying to get a collective bargaining agreement, but the amount of money they do generate and how they share it.
00;44;48;16 - 00;45;17;18
Speaker 4
Yeah, it's been really fun for me. You know, when I was at ESPN, I did a lot of ESPN stuff and stuff in women's sports while simultaneously doing a lot of my own stuff. And with my new show, Good Game with Sarah Spain, it's the only daily women's sports show of any kind podcast, radio, website, digital TV. And so we're really trying to tackle kind of the job of sports center, plus interviews and other things, giving people all the news that they need to know about all the different leagues and teams and sports and diving into it has been so rewarding.
00;45;17;20 - 00;45;38;02
Speaker 4
And it's a lot of the stuff I've been saying for a couple decades now, which is the product was not the problem. It was all the things around it. And that could be anything from literal bans on play a lot of people don't know. As the European Women's Soccer League blows up in attendance and viewership, that you're that England banned women's professional soccer for for 70 years.
00;45;38;05 - 00;45;53;07
Speaker 4
Like you think that's going to affect growth and participation and investment? Of course it did. Right. So a lot of pseudoscience about women's place in sport and what their bodies can handle. And, you know, everyone said our uterus is going to fall out when we ride horses and run marathons and ski jump and all the other things.
00;45;53;07 - 00;46;12;06
Speaker 4
As far as I know, I've never heard of a uterus ever falling out, but that was what was always threatened to try to keep us back in the house popping out babies. And instead, it's when you look at the media coverage, when you look at investment in leagues, when you look at being treated like a startup, like men's leagues have always been the idea that the ROI is going to come over a long period of time and not immediately within one year.
00;46;12;06 - 00;46;34;29
Speaker 4
Even the way that losses are reported in a women's league versus men's leagues that can fail and bankrupt over and over and still get hundreds of millions of dollars. Like you add all that together and you have a real comprehensive, nuanced view of the space, and you understand why women's sports have been put at such a deficit. Even things like taxpayer dollars going to men's stadiums, while women's leagues have to be funded wholly independently, there's just a lot that goes into it.
00;46;34;29 - 00;47;08;12
Speaker 4
And so seeing it finally kind of turn this corner the way that it has has been incredible. I'm so excited for the NWSL in Denver because I like any excuse to come to Denver. But also we just saw Jen Millett, the president, on Good Game and talking about some of the ways that these teams that start now get to be so specific to the city in which they're originating and so specific to the time, whether that's really cool branding and logos, the plans that, Denver Summit has for creating a space without parking, they will they promised accessibility will be a priority for them, but they will plan to have a lot of folks
00;47;08;12 - 00;47;29;20
Speaker 4
showing up to games on bikes and walking and, you know, being active surrounding the stadium that they're creating in the middle of Denver. And I think there's just something really cool about the sort of flexibility and agility of women's leagues and teams that are starting now that are so much more nascent than the men's leagues that carry with them decades of, you know, tradition and expectation and size.
00;47;29;22 - 00;47;49;23
Speaker 4
It's making for some really cool stuff. I mean, if you look at unrivaled, the women's 3V3 league, that's popped up last year and will be in season two in January this year, this upcoming year, they're doing some really cool, smart stuff that other leagues are now stealing from. Because they don't have the burden of, of history to, to answer to.
00;47;49;25 - 00;48;03;06
Woody Paige
I found it so funny having covered, the World Cup for women's and the accomplishments that we've had in this country. And then to see Denver Summit is going to play its opening game at a football stadium.
00;48;03;06 - 00;48;04;12
Speaker 4
A mile high.
00;48;04;14 - 00;48;25;13
Woody Paige
Yeah, it's 75,000. And I couldn't comprehend that happening. I mean, I could see it at an Olympics. I could see it at a World Cup. But to me, that's a moment that here Denver didn't. How do I put this? Denver wasn't interested in having right where the.
00;48;25;13 - 00;48;28;19
Speaker 4
First professional women's team there. Yeah.
00;48;28;22 - 00;48;42;02
Woody Paige
And to see that this could be generated into such a, a great addition to the Denver sports scene in Colorado because Colorado is known for women's sports, but it's.
00;48;42;07 - 00;48;43;23
Speaker 4
Women's soccer.
00;48;43;26 - 00;49;06;12
Woody Paige
And it's pro skiing and accomplishments in the, in the Olympics. I did want to say to you, I find it funny. You know, I'm curious if you feel the way we got accused on Around the Horn. I'm going to say we in that point of stick to sports. You know it's LeBron James. Yeah, stick to dribbling to shut up and dribble.
00;49;06;13 - 00;49;24;02
Woody Paige
Yeah a lot of people felt like ran a horn went away because we became woke and stuff. I don't think it's about sports going into politics. I think it's about politics going into sports. Am I making sense to any of you that. Yes. I mean, we have a year United States and I'm not going to go too far down this line.
00;49;24;02 - 00;49;46;03
Woody Paige
But he he wants to be in the press box and talk about sports today. And I found it was just the opposite of what we were accused of, that when we would get into social, commentary that it was politics getting into social commentary about what's happening with the NCAA, what's happening with the in AI age, what's happening with women's sports.
00;49;46;05 - 00;49;50;04
Woody Paige
I wonder if you have ever approached it from that standpoint. All right.
00;49;50;06 - 00;50;10;25
Speaker 4
Your show on Good game. Yeah. I mean, I get your point. It's always been interesting to me how when something is something people disagree on, they call it politics. But anything else that's not straight up sports is fine. But as soon as it crosses into a path where there's a disagreement, it's labeled as politics and it's woke to talk about instead of just being a natural intersection on our show, we have to talk about a lot.
00;50;10;28 - 00;50;32;09
Speaker 4
And frankly, it would be ridiculous to sort of ignore the ways that women operate in the world in a way that sort of can't be separated from politics. You know, the example that I use, that's the frankly, the easiest for me is you have a league in the WNBA that has a draft. You know, the NWSL has gotten rid of its draft, but the WNBA has a draft.
00;50;32;12 - 00;50;54;06
Speaker 4
And if you're a player getting drafted to the Dallas Wings, you're getting drafted to a state where you do not have bodily autonomy. You do not have a right to make a lot of your health decisions. And some would say, oh, well, that's only specific to, you know, abortion or otherwise. But if you get pregnant, if you don't know you're pregnant, if you go in for a treatment and something comes up, you're not in charge.
00;50;54;06 - 00;51;13;28
Speaker 4
And so to be forcibly drafted somewhere and then live in a state where you don't have the same rights as your male counterparts, that's political, whether you want it to be or not. Right. There are so many spaces in women's sports that are impacted by the decision making of policy, that it's sort of impossible to ignore.
00;51;14;02 - 00;51;28;08
Speaker 4
We want to get to the X's and O's. We want to tell you about the big games coming up, the stories you know, which players are dating. That's one of the best, most fun parts about women's sports is you got players that are married on the same team. You got players who are divorced, playing against each other. All the other good juicy T that we love.
00;51;28;12 - 00;52;05;06
Speaker 4
But, but we also are not going to ignore the opportunity to talk about the places where really serious issues intersect with the leagues, and especially now you're looking at there's a new project B women's league that has a partnership with a group that's related to the Saudis. You know, you talk about Liv golf, you talk about the WTA playing tournaments in Saudi Arabia, in Riyadh, there's more and more conversation that's going to be required, with the globalization of sport and with the intersection of some of these groups that are, frankly, sportswashing, that if you don't have, you're just burying your head in the sand.
00;52;05;06 - 00;52;23;08
Speaker 4
And same goes for, you know, the way that I mean, look at look at LSU and the governor trying to insert himself into decision making around the athletic director of the coach. You know, I mean, it's it's to your point is absolutely right. It's politics inserts itself into sports. And then people have to respond.
00;52;23;10 - 00;52;31;02
Woody Paige
Okay, I have a final question. One word bears question mark.
00;52;31;04 - 00;52;32;16
Speaker 4
Thriving.
00;52;32;19 - 00;52;33;24
Woody Paige
Yeah.
00;52;33;26 - 00;52;45;29
Speaker 4
We just passed the Packers. We got the Giants coach fired Ben Johnson is a guy I can believe in. Caleb is pulling off all these last second drives. I know that's not one word, but I got to enjoy it. Like, listen, as a baby, I didn't.
00;52;45;29 - 00;52;46;29
Woody Paige
Say one word either.
00;52;46;29 - 00;52;49;19
Speaker 4
You okay? One more. Just one word for you.
00;52;49;22 - 00;52;50;01
Woody Paige
Yeah.
00;52;50;01 - 00;53;03;11
Speaker 4
I got to do it while I can. Because with the bears, you just never know what they're going to do. And lately, it hasn't been anything good. So when they're winning, when they're. When they're winning games, regardless of how trash they might look in the middle of those games, I'm gonna celebrate.
00;53;03;14 - 00;53;16;11
Woody Paige
Yeah. The I meant one word for me because I know you have a bunch of words because you suffered, badly for years and years. And I thought, well, maybe finally she has maybe.
00;53;16;13 - 00;53;34;04
Tom Green
A brighter outlook. Sarah, the book is called runs in the family. And, the daily podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain. We love that you were able to take a few minutes to reconnect with your old pal Woody and join us here. Thanks so much for your time. Love the chance to talk with you. Hopefully we can do it again.
00;53;34;06 - 00;53;37;22
Speaker 4
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Nice to see you, Woody.
00;53;37;25 - 00;53;38;24
Woody Paige
Take care.
00;53;38;26 - 00;53;48;27
Tom Green
All right? We gotta we gotta grind some gears when we come back.
00;53;48;29 - 00;54;13;05
Ron Zappolo
Fellas, this occurred to me the other day. I'm watching the Giants and the bears, and the Giants were wearing their throwback uniforms with the Giants on the helmet, white uniforms. And I thought, man, that looked good. And then I'm watching the Broncos the last couple weeks against Dallas and against the Raiders. And they're wearing the old Denver throwback uniforms.
00;54;13;05 - 00;54;21;01
Ron Zappolo
And you know what bothers me. All these teams and I can go down the list. The Patriots, who had one of the all time great.
00;54;21;03 - 00;54;22;22
Tom Green
Revolutionary War centers.
00;54;22;23 - 00;54;55;05
Ron Zappolo
All these teams had great, not good, but great old school uniforms and because of the almighty buck, we've now gone to all these newer uniforms. And it's not just in the NFL. I baseball is the best city connect uniforms that are just God awful. Why can't all these teams, they make enough money? Why can't they go back to a day when the uniforms were classic, like the old Saint Louis Cardinals?
00;54;55;05 - 00;55;21;24
Ron Zappolo
One of the reasons why I respect the Yankees. They haven't screwed around with their uniform. The old Red Sox uniforms, the Dodgers, uniform still looks great. Instead, we've got a whole country and every sport. We're just in this never ending desire. Greed to get the last buck they can get. Keep changing the uniforms. When the classic uniforms are the way to go.
00;55;21;24 - 00;55;40;12
Tom Green
It's like New Coke, I think. But I remember last summer, I think was last summer. Yankees played the Dodgers, which they don't often do, but now with interleague play, and they went out there to Los Angeles and they were wearing City Connect uniforms, both teams. And I'm going, Yankees. Dodgers. I mean, the classic of classic uniforms. I mean, that's all you want to see.
00;55;40;12 - 00;55;44;26
Tom Green
And instead you see something that makes you think Duke Snider, you know, led a band.
00;55;44;29 - 00;55;50;15
Ron Zappolo
I mean, I went back to Fenway this summer. They're wearing these god awful yellow.
00;55;50;16 - 00;55;54;01
Woody Paige
Yeah, it's look like UCLA. They yellow.
00;55;54;01 - 00;55;54;24
Ron Zappolo
Yellow.
00;55;54;27 - 00;56;05;14
Woody Paige
But I'm just watching the game last night. And I went, thank goodness the Packers aren't wearing their throwbacks. I am so tired of every year. That thing out of the thing.
00;56;05;14 - 00;56;06;07
Ron Zappolo
Yes. I don't know.
00;56;06;07 - 00;56;06;19
Woody Paige
What else to.
00;56;06;19 - 00;56;08;11
Ron Zappolo
Call it. There are some bad 20s.
00;56;08;15 - 00;56;10;18
Woody Paige
There are the Packers, the Steelers.
00;56;10;18 - 00;56;11;20
Tom Green
Well, you don't have to throw all the.
00;56;11;20 - 00;56;14;11
Woody Paige
Way back to mind. Yeah. But if you're.
00;56;14;13 - 00;56;24;14
Tom Green
If you are the Packers your classic uniform the Bart star green Bay, you can't beat that. If you throw all the way back to the Neanderthal Packers. Yeah, that's a skip.
00;56;24;14 - 00;56;25;12
Ron Zappolo
Well, the.
00;56;25;14 - 00;56;47;21
Woody Paige
Broncos on a local basis haven't gone back to that. Striped socks, vertical striped socks and the brown and yellow, that they, they bought from Tucson. Yeah. Bowl game that those colors. How do I put this nicely. The Broncos original colors were excrement.
00;56;47;23 - 00;56;48;19
Ron Zappolo
Right.
00;56;48;22 - 00;56;50;00
Woody Paige
And and featured.
00;56;50;00 - 00;56;56;24
Ron Zappolo
Pieces. But the the uniforms they were in when we all got to Denver. Those are the uniforms.
00;56;56;24 - 00;57;06;02
Tom Green
That I'm talking. So here's what we need when they do it. When they go because they have one more game, they're going to be able to use those throwbacks this year. Will Lutz should go with the Jim Turner Single bar.
00;57;06;03 - 00;57;06;28
Ron Zappolo
Single bar and.
00;57;06;28 - 00;57;08;25
Tom Green
Haven Moses for the Courtland Sutton.
00;57;08;27 - 00;57;09;05
Ron Zappolo
Yeah.
00;57;09;05 - 00;57;12;29
Tom Green
Little two bar with it. Yeah. Do you guys want to go all the way back? Go.
00;57;13;02 - 00;57;13;14
Ron Zappolo
Sure.
00;57;13;14 - 00;57;16;16
Woody Paige
About the Lutz thing with the high, high tide. Yeah.
00;57;16;18 - 00;57;17;16
Ron Zappolo
So that could good to.
00;57;17;23 - 00;57;37;00
Tom Green
Yeah, that would be good. Hey, the nuggets, speaking of uniforms, have, a part of the NBA exposed or or showed us their new, City Connect uniforms for this year. So the nuggets will be doing that as well. And when you think of the, there's a look at some of what they're doing. And that to me looks like a uniform they've worn before.
00;57;37;00 - 00;57;44;02
Ron Zappolo
Yeah that's okay. But I mean my favorite nugget uniform is the one from the 80s when they had the cityscape.
00;57;44;08 - 00;57;45;10
Tom Green
Well the skyline.
00;57;45;10 - 00;57;49;13
Ron Zappolo
Well, it's a little bit, but not exactly the same there. It's it's similar.
00;57;49;14 - 00;57;51;17
Tom Green
I like the old the Mac, the minor.
00;57;51;17 - 00;57;52;10
Ron Zappolo
I like the minor.
00;57;52;10 - 00;57;53;23
Tom Green
David Thompson era.
00;57;53;26 - 00;57;54;22
Ron Zappolo
I can't see those.
00;57;54;28 - 00;57;56;13
Woody Paige
Rockets.
00;57;56;15 - 00;57;58;03
Ron Zappolo
Now. We're going way back.
00;57;58;06 - 00;58;06;19
Woody Paige
You know, but I, I saw these last night, this morning. Whatever it might have come out and I thought that's got the cityscape.
00;58;06;19 - 00;58;09;13
Ron Zappolo
It does, it does good. It does.
00;58;09;13 - 00;58;18;19
Woody Paige
It's black and that's it to be the alternative color for most teams, but it sure beats the hell out of a license plate. Well, yes. What I thought when I looked at it.
00;58;18;21 - 00;58;33;10
Tom Green
Well, so let's do the rank. Rank them real quick. Rank them. Because the Nordic jersey that the avalanche wore this year was sensation I liked it. The Broncos throwback is perfect. The nuggets this isn't really a throwback.
00;58;33;10 - 00;58;33;21
Ron Zappolo
But it's.
00;58;33;21 - 00;58;46;03
Tom Green
Okay. Yeah but this is this would be there's two. But I would say you can't beat the Broncos in that classic creamsicle orange and paste pale blue. And then that Quebec Nordic sweater was tremendous.
00;58;46;06 - 00;58;48;29
Ron Zappolo
Yeah that game was great when it was the Nordiques. And the.
00;58;48;29 - 00;58;50;10
Tom Green
Way the whale.
00;58;50;13 - 00;58;54;15
Ron Zappolo
Was terrific. I love that the NHL needs to do more of that.
00;58;54;17 - 00;58;59;07
Tom Green
And the Rockies, they have the classic pinstripe look when they just go with their basic pinstripe look.
00;58;59;08 - 00;59;00;27
Ron Zappolo
I like their pinstripe look. Yeah.
00;59;00;28 - 00;59;08;22
Woody Paige
Yes. And, even maybe the, the black ones that. Yeah. Yeah. Or Pittsburgh Pirates got bad.
00;59;08;24 - 00;59;11;15
Ron Zappolo
Yeah, yeah. With the, with the cut out, sleeves.
00;59;11;17 - 00;59;14;13
Tom Green
They could bring back Walker, Helton and Vinnie. That'd be great.
00;59;14;13 - 00;59;16;29
Ron Zappolo
To Andrus. Galarraga. That all might help.
00;59;16;29 - 00;59;17;08
Woody Paige
Yeah.
00;59;17;15 - 00;59;20;16
Ron Zappolo
Because this one, even at this age there wouldn't be any.
00;59;20;18 - 00;59;39;07
Woody Paige
It's so easy to make fun of them. But the one this year, the one the there was the license plate. Yeah. That was the first one. Then the one they come up this year look like when I, when the ice cream truck would come into my neighborhood that, that was, that was a type of ice cream that I could order that was blue and red and green or something.
00;59;39;07 - 00;59;41;02
Woody Paige
It was called a torpedo or something.
00;59;41;02 - 00;59;41;26
Tom Green
Right, right. Yeah.
00;59;41;26 - 00;59;44;24
Ron Zappolo
You know, it was so cool when you were a kid, when the ice cream man.
00;59;44;24 - 00;59;46;08
Woody Paige
Came forward, even more.
00;59;46;11 - 00;59;47;01
Tom Green
So.
00;59;47;04 - 00;59;49;03
Ron Zappolo
The the bell, remember? You could hear the bell.
00;59;49;09 - 01;00;00;09
Tom Green
Yeah. But college, we see it now. And because they all, you know, they always say they need more money, but they seem to have plenty of money. Like, you know, Oregon has 12 different uniforms a year and a see.
01;00;00;16 - 01;00;09;27
Woody Paige
You forget what he's talking about. You know, talk about this now. Your parents would let you go. The ice cream truck. Oh, you'd be afraid. The ice cream truck guy was going to quit you.
01;00;09;29 - 01;00;17;11
Ron Zappolo
So you wouldn't. They wouldn't let you go down the street. In those days, your parents were like, hey, be good. Come on, before it's dark.
01;00;17;11 - 01;00;22;09
Woody Paige
That's probably if you can just, My mother said, where you been all day? That's the ice cream, man.
01;00;22;10 - 01;00;39;24
Ron Zappolo
But I could have. But I remember going out. And you would play with your friends, baseball, whatever the season was. And then, like, you'd screw around all day, and then somebody's mother would call you in for dinner, and she would call your mother. Hey, I've got Woody or Ron over here. I'll make sure they get home.
01;00;39;25 - 01;00;48;23
Woody Paige
That was what was wrong with baseball, though. We would go out when we were 9 or 10, and we would play the equivalent of 40 game games.
01;00;48;23 - 01;00;49;01
Ron Zappolo
Yeah.
01;00;49;01 - 01;01;01;14
Woody Paige
You come up to bat like, yep, 80 times. So instead of that you go to the junior league, which I did at one point, and you play seven games and you get three three.
01;01;01;17 - 01;01;03;18
Tom Green
Yeah, you stand in right field.
01;01;03;18 - 01;01;23;02
Woody Paige
And then what's happened is that now they have the guys, the traveling teams go everywhere and they play 50 or 60 times. But I don't think knowing a father who wanted a son to be a major league pitcher friend of mine, that the kid didn't want to do, that he wanted to play home, he wanted to be home with.
01;01;23;04 - 01;01;23;25
Ron Zappolo
Because it was.
01;01;23;25 - 01;01;30;03
Tom Green
Fun. It also drove a lot of young boys, especially girls, to towards lacrosse because lacrosse you plays.
01;01;30;03 - 01;01;49;13
Ron Zappolo
Play all the time, you're run. But I mean, I know that the age where we just grew up and played everything and I'm like, you, I played organized stuff. But the organized stuff, even in high school, wasn't as much fun because it was. So it was just a sliver of what you did in the neighborhood with 12 other guys.
01;01;49;14 - 01;01;54;10
Tom Green
The difference was, though, if you played organized, you might get a uniform you could get. I was pretty cool.
01;01;54;11 - 01;01;57;04
Ron Zappolo
We did these years back in the day.
01;01;57;07 - 01;01;59;16
Woody Paige
And tee ball. Give me a break.
01;01;59;16 - 01;02;04;05
Ron Zappolo
Come on. And we could play all day. You're. You're right. Your parents didn't worry.
01;02;04;06 - 01;02;06;14
Tom Green
Oh, you kids today are so soft.
01;02;06;14 - 01;02;07;17
Ron Zappolo
Soft?
01;02;07;19 - 01;02;08;08
Woody Paige
Yes.
01;02;08;10 - 01;02;32;12
Ron Zappolo
Soft. Boy, that was. You know, I had the. I had another, that, related issue. I had to coach my wife up once on how to handle going to a kid's baseball game because she didn't know in. You know, I had one son that played at South High. Quick story. And from the jv's, he got called up as a sophomore to the varsity.
01;02;32;12 - 01;02;55;08
Ron Zappolo
And I was so, so proud. And I went to North High School. I had to take a little detour from my job, and I go over there and he's leading off and he fouls off like ten pitches and finally strikes out on like the 13th pitch. And I'm so proud of him. And I can see my wife after screaming and yelling and yelling at him, a little tear comes out and I said, number one, we don't have that.
01;02;55;14 - 01;03;08;08
Ron Zappolo
Number two, we don't scream and yell at the kids when they're playing. We don't want them to look at us. We want them to look out there. And it took a while, but I got it, I get it.
01;03;08;13 - 01;03;08;25
Tom Green
The tough.
01;03;08;25 - 01;03;15;23
Woody Paige
Guy. I think that's incredible that you were to the from the uniforms. I know. Well your kid play was.
01;03;15;23 - 01;03;17;24
Ron Zappolo
Just a little it was just a little story for you.
01;03;17;24 - 01;03;23;20
Woody Paige
Grinding your gears about the fact that your son could only follow for 11 pitches and, you know, no.
01;03;23;21 - 01;03;45;14
Ron Zappolo
Not really, because I'll tell you one more quick story. I took him down to spring training one year because I wanted him to experience it. And the first day we get down there, I take him on to the field and the first guy he runs into is Bob Kravitz, and I introduced him to Bob Kravitz. And as he's talking to Bob Kravitz, here comes Dante Bassett on a run over to it.
01;03;45;14 - 01;04;01;18
Ron Zappolo
So I'm thinking, oh, this is good. He wants to come over and say hello. No, he didn't. He wanted to beat the shit out of Bob Kravitz over something he wrote. And Gene Glynn separated them. And I told my kid, welcome to write this baseball.
01;04;01;21 - 01;04;17;07
Tom Green
That is going to do it. For this week's edition of After the Hornets Story, we're back on a weekly basis. We'd love to have you join us. Like, subscribe, visit, drop by, send us a note. Postcards if you will send anything you got to, us here at gorilla Sportsnet.